David Freeman began martial arts as a kid in karate, competing in tournaments around the country. As a young adult in Seattle he wandered into a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu class and got thoroughly beaten by a training partner, and that hooked him. He moved to the Bay Area in 2000, kept training, and in 2009 opened an academy in Hayward, California with a few partners. It began in a teaching space of about 600 square feet.
He had no business degree, no investors and, when he opened, not even a cell phone. More than fifteen years later the school is still growing.
That background makes him a good guide for owners starting from nothing. His conversation with Red Belt Podcast host Brian "Barn Cat" Debes kept returning to a few themes: sales skill outweighs formal credentials, systems beat memory, and in sales, intent beats tricks.
Sales Experience Beats a Business Degree for Most School Owners
Asked whether a business degree or hands-on sales work helps a gym owner more, David didn't knock education, but he doesn't think college is necessary to fast-track a martial arts school. What helped him most was years of telemarketing, festival T-shirt sales and selling for a cell phone company. Those jobs taught him scripts, objection handling and follow-up. The basic sales process hasn't changed much since then, he says; modern tools just let one person reach far more people.
Brian added a hiring lesson. It's very hard to hire and manage people for a job you have never done yourself. An owner who doesn't train can't spot a fake black belt, and sales works the same way. Brian says he couldn't hire or train a good salesperson until he got good at selling himself. An owner doesn't have to be the best seller in the building, but they need enough skill to recognize good work.
Conversion Benchmarks Worth Tracking
The two compared numbers openly. Brian's rule is that no step of the funnel, whether leads to appointments, appointments to shows, or shows to signups, should fall below 50%. Fifty percent is his passing line, and 80% is excellent. David had closed 63% of the prospects he met in person the month before, and he wants it higher.
Brian ran the funnel math to show why this matters more than buying more leads. Start with 100 leads. If each of the three steps converts at 20%, the school signs less than one student. At 50% per step, the result is roughly a dozen. At 80%, it's around 50. Doubling ad spend can't make up for a weak funnel.
Brian accepts a lower close rate from a new salesperson at first. Training costs money up front, but a repeatable process lets the owner add more people and handle more leads than one owner could alone.
Why a CRM Comes Before You Can "Afford" One
Before using any software, David ran billing through his local bank. Enrolling a member meant faxing paperwork. Attendance and payments lived on handwritten yellow sheets of paper scattered around the gym. He assumed he should wait until the school made more money before paying for tools.
He now thinks he had it backwards. When a business coach first told him to buy a CRM and hire an appointment setter, it felt like one more expense he couldn't cover. Looking back, he says he can't imagine running a school without one. Brian added that even the weakest system beats having none.
The value is in consistency. David pointed to a specific benefit: in about an hour, a school can reach every new lead from the month, every member with an expired card and every failed payment, a job that would take one person days by hand. People are busy and flooded with spam, so persistent, organized follow-up is what keeps a lead from going cold.
Both men keep humans on the phones. David has a virtual assistant who handles calls and customer service. Both believe a live conversation, ideally from the same number that has been texting the prospect, converts better than automation alone.
There Is No "Set It and Forget It"
As the school grew, David learned that staff need constant reminders. Brian compared it to weekly factory safety briefings: if workers need reminders to keep their hands away from spinning blades, staff will need reminders to keep making calls and cleaning the mats.
The fix is a standing weekly meeting or check-in. For solo owners, Brian recommends a mastermind or coaching group for the same reason: someone to remind them every week what they already know. David's test for choosing who to learn from is simple. First, are they doing what you're trying to do? Second, are they doing it better than you are now?
Building Beyond Paid Leads
When David looked at his data, more than 90% of the school's leads came from paid advertising. His next step is organic growth, modeled partly on lessons from his home care business, where referral relationships with nursing facilities and social workers bring in far more business than ads.
For the school, that means rebuilding the website with an outside firm focused on SEO, and building relationships with local schools that already send kids his way. The academy also sponsors training for children of formerly incarcerated parents, and he plans to do the same for kids in foster care.
Sell With Real Intent
Asked for one sales tip, David skipped scripts and mirroring techniques. After an estimated tens of thousands of sales conversations, he believes the biggest lever is sincerely wanting to solve the prospect's problem. "You have to be intentional about solving this person's problem," he says, and that belief shows in tone, body language and patience with objections. Brian added that owners often sell the version of training they personally love. The real job is to find out what the prospect came for, whether that's weight loss, confidence or community, and build the conversation around it.
Key Takeaways
- ✓Sales experience is a real advantage. If you don't have it, learn it, because you can't hire or coach a role you don't understand.
- ✓Keep every funnel step above 50%, and treat 80% as the goal. Conversion gains add up faster than more leads do.
- ✓Get a CRM early. Spreadsheets, paper and bank-run billing cost more in lost follow-up than software costs per month.
- ✓Use automation to start conversations, not replace them. A phone call from a real staff member still converts best.
- ✓Repeat what matters every week, through staff meetings for teams or a mastermind for solo owners.
- ✓Diversify beyond paid ads with SEO, school partnerships and community programs.
Listen to the Full Episode
Hear David's full story, including his early sales jobs and his take on cause and effect in business, on Spotify or YouTube. If your school is still running on scattered notes and memory, Red Belt Software helps gym owners automate follow-up, improve retention and grow.